Navigating Your Next Career Move: Tips for Job Seekers | Leah York (Episode 49)

 In this episode, we sit down with Leah York, Founder and President of Talbott Talent, to uncover expert advice for job seekers navigating the nonprofit sector. Leah shares invaluable insights on standing out in a competitive market, avoiding common interview pitfalls, and aligning your personal values with organizational missions. Whether you're looking to advance your career or land your dream job, this episode is packed with tips to help you succeed.

Transcript

Chris Beaman, CAE
Hello and welcome to You Should Hear This, a podcast for the everyday association professional. I'm Chris Beaman, your host. Today's podcast is brought to you by Visit Bloomington. In the heart of the U. S. Midwest, Bloomington, Indiana is the perfect place to host a small to midsize meeting, convention, or conference. Offering unique and flexible venues available to groups of up to 400 people, as well as a hub for higher education at Indiana University, a nationally revered culinary scene, and natural wonders like the Hoosier National Forest and Monroe Lake, Bloomington is sure to wow your guests during and after your event! Go to visitbloomington.com To start planning your next meeting.

Leah York, CAE, founded Talbott Talent in 2017 with one goal: to dramatically improve the work culture of nonprofits by changing their hiring practices, who and how they hire. Serving Talbott Talent, she transforms nonprofits through their people by leading a strategic, passionate team of recruiters, and nonprofit consultants to help nonprofits and associations find the best executives, hire the right staff members, and recruit mission-aligned board members. Prior to founding Talbott Talent, Leah spent almost 20 years in the association's C suite and nonprofit consulting roles. Additionally, she has served on many nonprofit boards throughout her community, region, and state, including the Indiana Society of Association Executives (ISAE), Art with a Heart, the O'Connor House, and founding board president of the One Zone Impact Foundation, the Board of Zoning Appeals for Carmel, Indiana, and as a founding committee chair of the One Zone Women's Network. When Leah is not laser-focused on transforming nonprofits, she can be found volunteering at her local farmer's market on Saturday mornings, where she serves as a city liaison for the Carmel Farmer's Market, riding her bike or taking walks on the Monon Trail, and spending time with her friends and family. Wow, Leah, you're so busy! Thanks for being here with us today.

Leah York, CAE
Thank you for having me, Chris. I love to fill my life with things that bring me joy.

Chris Beaman, CAE
Absolutely, and we're going to talk about some of that today. I think, a lot of association professionals and nonprofit leaders are looking at that as well, things, positions, opportunities that bring them joy. But, before we get into that, I wanted to start by asking you, what do you see as some of the biggest challenges that nonprofit organizations are facing right now in terms of talent management and leadership development?

Leah York, CAE
That's a big question. I think that one of the challenges is that the candidate pool is larger than ever right now. I also think there are internal processes that can be refined, no longer can you gather resumes, sit on them for a while, interview a few people, and then take your time. You will lose the great ones that way. So, I think that one of the biggest challenges is organizations responding to those trends.

Chris Beaman, CAE
It's interesting you bring up the timeliness. I saw a friend posted recently her job interview process, and it was a 15-step process of various writing components and several different interviews of people. And they asked the question, just to their friends on social media, is this worth it for a job? Without knowing all the steps of course, what's your take on that? Is that full process worth it?

Leah York, CAE
I have a strong opinion about that. Now, it's interesting because the assumption is that if the candidate takes the time and energy to complete a written assignment or maybe come to an interview and do a more formal presentation than just an interview conversation, that means that they're more interested and dedicated to the role. That is false. The best candidates are going to look at that process and say, "I don't have time for this." The best candidates are dedicated to their job where they are but also are interested in a new opportunity, but they're not going to take advantage of your new opportunity if you make them jump through that many hoops. Instead, ask them solid, strong, behavioral-based questions and have a few conversations, and that's the best thing to do.

Chris Beaman, CAE
Sure, that makes sense. I appreciate you sharing that because I felt similarly when my friend posted that. I don't think I would want to go through that process either. That's a commitment! You also said something earlier that I want to touch on. That the candidate pool is larger than ever, which I feel like is a bit of bad news for some of our listeners today who are job seekers. My question for you is what advice do you have for candidates to stand out in this competitive market with, a bit of a focus on the nonprofit or association sector?

Leah York, CAE
That's all we work with are nonprofits. That's all I know. So if you ask me anything outside of that, I'll just have this claim that I don't have any idea. I talked to our hiring solutions manager about this because she handles all the positions when we are posting a position and sourcing candidates that way. And I asked her, "How can people stand out?" And, the things that she said are so simple for everyone to do. First of all, make sure that your resume is complete and updated, and include on there, your volunteer experience. A lot of times for nonprofits, you might be coming from the for-profit world, or if you're at an association, but you want to make a jump to working for a charitable organization that just grabs your heart and you feel passionate about. Share your volunteer experience where you have volunteered for a charitable organization because that helps. If you're coming from more corporate, for-profit experience, that shows us how well-rounded you are and what knowledge you may have about the nonprofit space, because we're a little special in the nonprofit space in a really good way. I think that's why I chose to be here. Also, highlight transferable skills. All titles mean different things to different organizations. Highlight the results that you've gotten, but specifically the transferable skills. Share specific skills that led to specific results or accomplish specific goals at one organization. It may be a different activity at another, but they're looking for somebody who can do that type of work. Make sure you share those.

Chris Beaman, CAE
I think that suggestion resonates with me and is applicable for all career stages. I mentor rising seniors at my alma mater, and they struggle a lot with creating their resumes. I have to remind them, "Put your club experience on there." And they think, "My employer won't want to hear about that." But, the way you frame it is that you were the president of this club. You led a group of your peers. What nonprofit doesn't want someone who has this experience? We planned events. What nonprofit doesn't want someone who already has some experience in knowing the messiness that goes along with planning events? I appreciate you sharing about those transferable skills because I feel like we forget about that. We highlight the professional responsibilities we have, and we forget about the volunteer experience. But, we need to elevate that.

Leah York, CAE
I agree. Great examples. The other quick thing I'll tell you is don't use Indeed-generated resumes because a lot of candidates are having technological issues with updating their resumes. So just, keep a Word document that you update. Spell check, and then spell check again, and have somebody else read it and spell-check it for you! Right or wrong, people reviewing your resume are going to make assumptions about misspellings or just typos. It's okay to use AI! Throw something into AI and see what comes out, but with the caveat that you then have to review and edit to personalize it. We can tell when it's just out of AI and you just cut and paste it. I think that's, I think that's most of the tips on my list.

Chris Beaman, CAE
I love those. And it's things like spell check that seems obvious, but it's not always. We get done with it, and we say, "Oh, thank God that's done." But, we need to go through those extra steps.

Leah York, CAE
Those were just resume examples. Standing out in other ways, don't minimize the impact of the handwritten note after the fact. Nobody gets mail anymore, and a handwritten note goes a long way. Don't stand out in a bad way by circumventing an organization's interview process and calling them at the office. Some people think that's going to make them stand out. "They're going to know that I'm hungry for this position." And really, it's just rude. You'll stand out in a bad way for sure.

Chris Beaman, CAE
Good to know. Your business is helping nonprofits find the right people and the right people find the right nonprofits. How can job seekers ensure their personal values align with the mission and nonprofit of an organization?

Leah York, CAE
That's a great question. First of all, you're going to read their mission and make sure, but it's hard to know what that internal culture is. I like to ask, "Why do people love working here?" If they can't come up with an off-the-cuff answer, then maybe their people don't love working there, and maybe you won't either. I always ask that question quite a bit. Also, think about the meaning behind the activity. If they start giving you hard and fast rules, especially at the interview stage, that means they have a ton of structure. Now you may be somebody that thrives in structure. If so, then go for it. But if you don't, and you like to be a little more loosey-goosey, listen for the things that they say about that. I'll just give my example. I have a results-focused business. I get joy out of finding out that one of my employees took the afternoon off, and made sure she scheduled around it so that she could go spend the day at the ball field with her son. I love that she gets to incorporate the things that are important to her. And, I know that she's getting the results I need her to get. So more power to her. So, I have a loosey-goosey culture.

Chris Beaman, CAE
You and I sat together at ICON for the ethics presentation. I remember one of the prompts that we had to answer: Right or wrong? In this scenario, someone was on their third strike being tardy, but it was an important issue for her to take care of a sick child. One person in the scenario was saying, "Oh, she needs to be fired." They were the judicious person. And the other side is saying, "You know what? We can have some leniency. This is just a policy that we've written. It's not legal. It's not necessarily per se ethical always." It just makes me think about how we ask those questions when trying to figure out truly what the culture is. I appreciate that distinction of what your employees love about working here versus what you do to engage employees. Because that's a huge difference. It's trying to get it the same thing, but it puts someone on the spot. It lets you have a conversation with somebody who works there.

Leah York, CAE
I think that's great. The organization needs to be careful about that because you don't want to have potential candidates talk with your existing employees if you're not going to ask that employee for feedback. People don't like to do tasks and not be asked for their feedback. You want to be careful about how often you do that and if you do it, then just make it very clear why you're doing that. I want this person to gain some understanding of what their life will be like if they work with us, and I want you to be completely honest. You can tell them the things that you don't like about working with me or the team. You can tell them, the good stuff too. Honestly, I want to make sure I have an abundance mentality. I want to make sure that I have the right people and that I'm right for them too. And no one is perfect.

Chris Beaman, CAE
Another friend of mine was talking about this recently. They asked a very similar question. What do you love about working here? What's the best part? And, the answer was the benefits. Their response is, "Lots of organizations have good benefits." It's not every organization, to be clear, but there are a lot that do.

Leah York, CAE
A follow-up question to that would be, "Benefits such as..." Because they might say, "A ton of flexibility." They may be calling that a benefit versus the 401k and the health insurance. So, asking a follow-up question is always good.

Chris Beaman, CAE
Excellent point. Listeners are going to be from varying stages of their careers. This podcast tends to have listeners from early to mid-level career stages. I think those of us in those stages are looking into possible leadership roles. When you're looking at candidates or when you're encouraging nonprofits to evaluate candidates, what qualities or experiences do you find most essential for some of those high-impact leadership roles?

Leah York, CAE
They're not, and we may have even talked about this when we were at ICON. It's not what you would assume about associations. They need to have strong business development and membership experience or they need to know how to work with the board. Those are all true things. But, I would focus more on how they make decisions, asking behavioral-based questions about how they make decisions. What do they do when somebody on the team, whether they're the leader or not just really digs their heels in and says, "I don't believe in this project. I don't want to work on this." How do they handle it? What has been an example of when they've had that happen? Because we've all had that happen, a reluctant coworker or board member that we've needed to work through. I say that to employers, but also candidates. Giving examples, very specific examples. Don't say, "Oh, I always do great making decisions," because most people have a difficult time making decisions at some point. Say, "I had a really hard time making a decision one time. This was the situation... I could see it this way, I can see it that way, so what I did is X, Y, and Z. Then, I made a decision based on the best possible outcome in terms of the information I had at my fingertips at that time." Giving an example and being vulnerable and humble about that goes way further than the very confident, "I'm a great decision maker" that sometimes comes off as arrogant. We all struggle with that from time to time.

Chris Beaman, CAE
I appreciate you sharing about that vulnerability because I think it's hard for a lot of people to find the right level of vulnerability. You don't want to say, "I messed up an entire organization" or "I damaged a ton of relationships based on this one move," but you do have to acknowledge that there have been those things that we've done in our past. I can't even remember if there were any questions around that in my last interview, but that's something I always prepare for. What is a decision that you've made or something that you've done that, knowing what you know now, you would do differently? Not a mistake that you made, but knowing what you know now, how would you approach that differently? Thinking about the job seeker experience, and how you're an incredible networker, I've seen you at all different types of functions and programs and LinkedIn. But I'm curious, how important is this idea of networking, and what strategies can job seekers use to build meaningful professional connections?

Leah York, CAE
Networking is so important. Networking is a general term, but building a network of connections that range from really true deep friendships all the way to professional acquaintances is so important. It has to be coupled with patience, we cannot expect that we're going to go to three networking events over the next six months, and then we're going to be able to name-drop all over town. That's not going to work. It takes a lot of patience, but one of my favorite examples truly is, that I've been going to ICON (I don't even know if we always called it that) for 20 years. In the beginning, I made sure I went to absolutely every session. I stuck around for every single break. I went to every single after-hours, and the after-after-hours, and the after-after-after-hours that wasn't even on the agenda and just hung out with people. A lot of times there's a lot of drinking and fun that's happening. I don't even drink and I still would go to all of that. As a result, I have made really deep connections within the association world here in Indiana. Those are people who have, as a result, either been candidates or clients. I didn't know I was going to do this business at that time. And some of them are true friends.

Chris Beaman, CAE
I think it's hard because I am very extroverted. It comes naturally to me just to show up and be present. I think the pandemic has exacerbated some of that because a lot of us are home all day or maybe we only are around one or two or three people for the most of our days. My challenge to people would be, along the lines of what you're saying, is just get out there. Show up and you don't have to have all the right answers, you don't have to say all the right things. One thing I did early on was just listen and ask questions. People love to talk about their own experiences. Ask them to talk and they'll do it. You don't have to say hardly a word. That's one way to combat that fear of saying the wrong thing or making a bad impression is to focus on the questions.

Leah York, CAE
That's exactly right. Be curious! This is what I always say! And in all things, not just in networking and meeting people, but be curious, and you just learn so much. It will lead to places you didn't even imagine. Coincidentally, just this morning, I went to a One Zone Women's Network event, and it was a tactical workshop where we tried to give concrete things that people can implement for success. We had an incredible speaker, and she was talking about networking. One of the things that she talked about was, asking a question. Don't be afraid to! If somebody asks you a question, don't be afraid to say, "I don't know, will you tell me about that?" It's okay to do, and people love that. Interestingly enough, we had a lot of women because it was a group of women wanting help with networking, and it was really hard to find a speaker. We've been looking for two years for a speaker that could give some concrete tactical methods. The speaker did a great job, but the interesting thing that I picked up on is the difference between networking challenges between women and men is the inner dialogue. There's an inner dialogue that women have. These are generalizations, but there's an inner dialogue that women have that is different inner dialogue that men have. We are motivated by different things. Recognizing what's going on in my head can impact the way I'm interacting with or learning about somebody else.

Chris Beaman, CAE
Just to throw it out there and be completely transparent, I, as a member of the LGBT community, have a lot of insecurities about myself that I have to in the moment, rationalize, "they don't think of you the way that you think of you." Which has been helpful in several areas of my life. I think recognizing that in the networking space has allowed me to further develop some of those relationships because, it's just that mental recognition of, "my brain is thinking something that may or may not be real."

Leah York, CAE
We tend to focus on either what we perceive to be our inadequacies or what we think other people see as our inadequacies. And really, they are just unique traits about us, and we bring out our true selves. Not everybody is for us and we're not for everybody. Just bring your true selves, and the rest will happen.

Chris Beaman, CAE
I love that. Turning our focus slightly to learning and skill development, I was actually on a webinar yesterday where someone asked the question: What skills are the most important for my skill bank right now in today's workforce? What role do continuous learning and skill development play in advancing one's career and how do you stay relevant?

Leah York, CAE
I think it's different for different roles. It also goes back to being curious and trying to focus on having a learner's mindset or being a lifelong learner. I think that is helpful because as long as we're learning, we're growing in whatever skill that may be. That's important at that time. I will say that technology helps us do so many things. And, it is the thing that if it goes wrong, I just want to jump off a cliff. They can send me over the edge. Some incredibly sharp people understand how to leverage technology. That's the key, not just knowing the technology, but knowing how to leverage it in a way that's useful to people is huge. There are things that my marketing manager has taught me that have nothing to do with marketing, but she's a different generation than I am and, she has a different level of tech-savvy. She has said, "Why don't you do this?" For example, I love to write. I'm a great writer. It takes me hours and hours. I just agonize over every single thing. Verbalizing it is no problem for me. So, she said, "Why don't you just send voice memos, and then somebody types it, and then you can edit." Oh my gosh! It cut the time down from eight hours writing a blog post totwo! Now, is every word exactly the way I want it to be? Probably not. But at some point, you have to let go. You have to just accept that you've got it good enough and move on. I love that. That was a hard lesson for me early on in my career, that good is good enough sometimes, as a perfectionist.

Chris Beaman, CAE
I appreciate the idea of leveraging technology because there isn't much out there in the world that isn't available to us via the internet. Whether it's knowledge or skills or people, everything is out there. It's all on our phones. Being able to, like you said, leverage that to gain, additional skills, hone those skills, even back to the conversation of networking, grow your network. It's easy to do from the LinkedIn app, right? You're monitoring and commenting on other people's posts that are similar to conversation. It's it's so much easier to do now.

Leah York, CAE
One other thing about leadership development. Often, especially to the listeners, you're moving from the individual contributor role to a management role. You may be doing that within your organization, or you may be talking to another organization and you're ready to make that kind of level up. One thing that I think nonprofits, including associations, are really bad at is looking at somebody who has great success as an individual contributor and saying, "Oh my gosh, they're fantastic! Let's help them lead that team." And then, not giving them any training at all about how to lead and manage people. Then, everything falls apart and nobody understands why. To employers, make sure you're giving coaching. Weekly coaching, or if it's some kind of training, some kind of education that you can buy for that individual. It's so important. If you are interviewing for a management position, and it's the first time you're going to manage other human beings, you've got to ask them, "What are you going to do to support my growth in learning how to manage people well? Because I want to get this right." People are the most important thing. They may not have thought about it, honestly, because, again, we're really bad at it in the nonprofit space. It'll at least get them to think about it and hopefully, if they haven't thought about it, they'll say, "Gosh, I haven't even thought that through, but let me get back to you on that because I can see why that would be important."

Chris Beaman, CAE
It signals that you want to do the best job. It signals that you know maybe you're not the most equipped on paper to perform this role, but that you're interested in it. You feel that you would be good at it. You've got the confidence, but you just need some additional support. We all do.

Leah York, CAE
We all do. When I place a CEO, even if they've been a CEO before, I always try to negotiate into their contract a coach for at least one year. I use the Peyton Manning example because that's my generation. Peyton Manning has a coach, right? Coaches have coaches, right? So, it's so important to have. One of my favorite sayings is, "If you're inside the frame, you cannot see the picture." Regardless, even if it's an area of expertise for me that I teach somebody else applying in my own life, I may have some blinders. I may not be able to see it. Having a coach that I can talk it through with is so important. Asking for help and coaching or training is not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of having that growth mindset of being, as you said, really focused on wanting to do a good job. And, also acknowledges that people are the most important asset an organization has. Led well, people can do incredible things for your organization, but if not led well, it becomes a contagious negative culture within your organization, which none of us want.

Chris Beaman, CAE
Exactly. I have to ask, have you seen the stats of how many Gen Z-ers are taking their parents to job interviews? Is that something that you've seen?

Leah York, CAE
Let me just put out a PSA. Do not take your parents to a job interview! I want to couple that with, there are people who have disabilities, invisible disabilities or even visible ones, and they truly do need accommodations. Not your parent probably, but if you need some kind of accommodation at work or through the interview process, utilize that. I think that's important. I don't want to discount any of the assistants but don't have it be your parents.

Chris Beaman, CAE
That is an important caveat. This is from CNBC, "One in four Gen Zers have brought a parent to a job interview over the past year. And, roughly one quarter have had their parents submit job applications on their behalf," according to a new survey of 1,500 Gen Zers. "Another 13 percent admit to having their parents complete their human resources screening calls," which is wild to me!

Leah York, CAE
I am not surprised about submitting the resume or application. That doesn't surprise me at all. Especially if it's their first job or their first couple of jobs. Or, I'm the parent of a young adult, and I know sometimes it's just doing this one thing for you so you can get moving on whatever it happens to be. Hashtag parenting issues! Submitting the resume or application doesn't surprise me, but taking their parents to the interview is shocking. And, having your parent do a screening, an actual call, is that what they're saying? That's inappropriate or unethical or something!

Chris Beaman, CAE
It's something that I giggle at, but I wonder about whether it is this going to be something that happens long-term. We see cultural shifts. We see process shifts. We see this stuff happen, over time. My question is just making light of that scenario. What trends are happening in the job market that job seekers should be aware of, especially in the nonprofit space? What are some things that you see are going to happen over the next few years, in the next 10 years that we need to be thinking about?

Leah York, CAE
If you want me to get my crystal ball, I have no idea. I can talk to you about some of the things I'm seeing, but I don't know how much they'll stick. One trend is that we all went to remote working, I had a client who, before the pandemic, could benefit from a hybrid working environment. It started to allow a couple of employees to work remotely, but not everybody had that benefit. It caused a lot of turmoil within her team. Then the pandemic happened, and now she's completely hybrid. But at the time I talked to her about it, suggesting maybe you should move to this and offer it. And she said, many employers "How will I know they're working? How will I know what they're doing? How will I know?" I always say, "How do you know they're working if they're at their desk? You're not hovering over their folders. You have to look at the results. But, I think working from home, working remotely, working from wherever in the world you want to be, it's going to level out. Most organizations will find what works for them. It's been a little bit of trial and error, and I think it's different for each organization. I will say to candidates that are interviewing, if your priority is, "I will only take a remote job", then you need to specify that and don't apply for any jobs that say you're going to need to come into the office at least some of the time if that's what you want. The other thing is, if you want to grow your career, you might not be able to work remotely all the time. Be reasonable about that. I think that's the biggest trend, and honestly, the most obvious one. The other thing I'm seeing come along with that is we've had people show up for interviews in pajamas. We've had people do all sorts of things. Just keep in mind that we've gone to this level of kind of casualness, which I love in a lot of ways. But, that doesn't mean that we can be unprofessional. Casual does not equal professional. In the way you dress, in the way you interact, have a little bit more casual language, but don't be inappropriate and drop the F-bomb every other sentence. Those are things that I think people newer in their careers are figuring out and need some help with. I think also, as people who have been in our careers for a lot longer, we can only give them some grace. They are entering the workforce in a different situation than we did. I'm a Gen X-er, so I'm one of the older people these days. Somebody told me a story one time. She had this employee she hired and the employee kept taking off their shoes and walking around the office. She just found it so offensive. Finally, the manager said, "Why are you taking out your shoes? You need to keep your shoes on." And the employee said, "Oh, I do. Okay. No problem." Problem solved. She just didn't realize.

Chris Beaman, CAE
To the point about the pajamas thing - I mentioned volunteering at my alma mater. I go back periodically, and students are carrying stuffed animals with them around campus. It's bizarre to me because I wouldn't have ever done that. There are many reasons we can't get into all of that, but it makes me wonder if that is something that will eventually show up in the workplace. I know Butler's campus is not the only one where this is happening. Are there soon going to be stuffed animals on desks? And, I don't know the impact of those things. I asked the question, "Does it matter to me? If it helps bring comfort and empowerment to the person that I need to do a good job, do I care if there's a stuffed animal sitting on their desk?" I think about it as a little weird, a little strange. These are just some of those things that more conversation is going to be had on.

Leah York, CAE
That's a good question because there are really two different questions: how well is an employee doing their job? And is it impacting the people around them? People have all sorts of interesting habits, and as long as it's not interfering, it's not a problem for your culture, they're getting their work done, "let people be people" is what I say. If you can let people be people, be whoever they are, they're going to thrive where they are.

Chris Beaman, CAE
Absolutely. It does require conversation because, as you pointed out, we all entered the workforce in different eras and different times. For example, a lot of Gen Z is saying, "If you don't put the salary on the job posting, I'm not even looking at it." We still have HR professionals saying, "We don't want to divulge that information for a reason, X, Y, Z." And, there's a lot of middle ground.

Leah York, CAE
We post the salary range. I think the old-school way was not to do it. And honestly, I'm not an HR professional. I grew up in the nonprofit and association space and I learned how to recruit, so I don't have any of that more traditional HR training. Posting the salary sets the expectation so that people know the range they're in. Unfortunately, a lot of times employers want to know, and I don't know if this is why they don't want to post the range or not. When I'm doing recruiting, they'll ask, "How much are they making in their current role?" First of all, you can't legally ask that question in most states. So, we don't. And, it shouldn't matter. We're not trying to bring them up a little bit. We're trying to pay them for the value that they're bringing at a competitive wage. I feel really strongly about that. That's part of why I got into what I do. When we say, "I want to change who and how employers hire," it also has to do with compensation and paying people a competitive wage. That's critical.

Chris Beaman, CAE
Leah, I so appreciate today's conversation. It has been so insightful, and I've learned some things. I've got some takeaways. A little teaser for our listeners today, we are going to bring Leah on again to flip the script and talk about the employer perspective. What do associations and nonprofits as employers need to be thinking about related to job candidates and job markets? Some of which we've discussed a little bit today, but we're going to dive deeper into those conversations. Leah, I want to thank you for your time today for being episode one of season four. We're so excited to have one of Indiana's best on our first episode, so thank you so much!

Leah York, CAE
Thank you! I appreciate being able to kick it off. Thanks, Chris, for your time.

Chris Beaman, CAE
Absolutely! Thanks again to Visit Bloomington for sponsoring today's podcast. We hope you enjoyed this episode of You Should Hear This. If you have any questions you'd answered or future topics you'd like us to explore, please send us an email at info at isae.org. Thank you for your leadership of your associations and nonprofits, and I'll see you over on the next episode of You Should Hear This.